Talkin' 'bout cream cheese sandwiches.
Male
Paper Salesman
Hard Knocks
One of the Coasts
Joined on 7/25/01
I would pay to see a part two if I had the cash.
But yea, You're one of the most talented dudes on NG. Don't let the fact that Outaw didn't do numbers like HTSON. I for one appreciate the time and effort put into it.
It definitely shows and a part two will only garner attention like Adam phillips's series.
Well keep doing what you do cause you do it the best,
Thanks a lot man. It's people like you that make me still consider making the second part - which exists, and is waiting to be made. Also, I'll take that cash in the form of unmarked $100 bills in a duffle bag under the liberty bell, on April 20th.
Whew, that was a good chunk of news post to read there! Hehe, but seriously...
This is just my two cents, which cant buy you much today and otherwise is worth nothing, but I think you should reconsider the creation of Outlaw 2. Now I shall present the backup argument...
1)The Newgrounds community is highly diverse, but a majority are those who enjoy the humor, gore, and 'porn' aspect of the site. This then causes the underappreciation of something with artistic merit. Though there are people out there who do respect Outlaw, they are greatly outnumbered by the adverage shortattention span Newgrounder hooligan.
2) With a second production of an already glamerous animation, more people may begin to acknowledge you. As I'm sure you're aware, those who submit often usually obtain higher scores than they 'should' because the adverage Newgrounder recognizes a familiar name, no matter their artistic or comedic abilities.
3) Cause I wanna see a follow up :3 I dont believe I left a review, but you did a fantastic job with Outlaw. Not only was the animation, story, and art superb, but you included an interactive menu. I always keep my eye out to see who will take that extra step to indulge the viewer. For me, I like knowing that what I'm watching wasnt just slapped together for the sake of popularity, but that it was created and intertwined with the artist's passion for the project.
Hopefully these points may cause your reconsideration. I've no doubt you'll make it into MGS collab, so I'll keep my eye out for your part ;D
-Temariix
You raise a good argument. If I were to make the second, I would spend as much time as necessary to make it even better than the first, but it's a scary thing to make a sequel to something where not that many people saw the original. Maybe people will go back and watch the first, or maybe people will write off the second since they never saw the first. It's a gamble. I just dont want to make something that no one sees. Even though it sounds like I'm in it just for the views, I do care about the project, and believe that it has value. The views are just a reinforcer to that belief. Thanks a lot for the advice and take it easy.
You really should work on finishing the story, just for the fact of finishing it. That way, years from now, you won't have that little voice in the back of your head wondering what would've happened if you had finished. That way you'll know.
Plus, you can consider it practice. After making one episode, in theory, the second should be easier, and so on. Maybe you'll learn new techniques from it. And, it will give you more stuff to add to your portfolio. I mean, a completed series looks better than one episode.
Making Outlaw was great practice actually. I had to constantly go back to older scenes and update them with newer techniques that I learned. I think I might have even learned how to draw better toward the end. So the art quality I think increased as the movie progressed. Anyways, you raise good points, and all will be taken into consideration.
i loved outlaw, it was very original, great animations, voice acting, (pretty much everything was good). i think that might be why it didnt do as well as you had hoped. some people dont like originality, just watch the so called "reality" shows on t.v. it would make me, and others happy to see a sequel, but its not our choice to make. if you decide to not continue with this series, then at least give us some hints at what happens next in the story so we have some closure. best of luck finding a job and house, and i cant wait to see your MGS piece. stay original and do flash for the sake of flash, not 5 minutes of fame that so many crappy parody artists get, but with the work of yours ive seen i dont think you will have that problem.
sorry for the super long comment
Thanks for the super long comment, and the kind words are greatly appreciated. The MGS compilation is a lot of fun to work on, but it will be the first and last video game related thing I will do. I take pride in originality, and most definitely will not make movies simply to cater to the masses.
Except for the Hentai Quiz/Videogame parody/Sprite movie I'm making.
dude don't quit that now. its amazing. i saw nothing boring it it to be honest but i enjoy a good serious flash once in a while. tis series could end up huge. look up the old block heads they weren't big until about the third episode or so. just because some idiot kid doesn't understand art doesn't mean you should give up hope on a masterpiece.
Thanks for the comment, and I will definitely take your words into consideration. Who knows, maybe people will look back on the original and enjoy it after the second is made.
Sigh....
Biff, this is just how Newgrounds works. We all know that Retarded Animal Babies will be more loved than Hanged Man Elegy. We all know that the Ultimate Showdown is more interesting to the majority than Smile! or Selva. The issue is that things that are serious and/or dramatic are not what's interesting to the general population, particularly on Newgrounds where many kids or bored college students hang out.
If you are unhappy with the product because you think you put too much effort into it, that's absolutely fine. But claiming that it was not worth anything if not for the admiration of some unknown people over the Internet? That seems like a bad reason to give up on this project.
Furthermore, I don't think you can even claim that it wasn't enjoyed or that it wasn't appreciated! It seems you were spoiled by your overly popular HTSON because 30,500 views is A LOT of people that wouldn't normally ever find anything artistic you do. Fact is, you are getting overly good responses from a large audience. That, coupled with loving to create, seems to me to make the whole ordeal worth it.
But, I'm not you. I'm not as creative or talented. Therefore, I know I can't blame you for deciding to quit on it. Hell, you give this out for free! But I did very much enjoy Outlaw, and I was excited about the possibilities in the developing storyline. You are also a fantastic animator, and just the hope that I would see you increase in skill every episode interested me. I'll keep checking back every once in a while to see if Outlaw pt.2 ever comes out and keep my fingers crossed for it.
Also, keep in mind that Temarix said about sequels because it really does work. It works even better if it becomes a series with its own collection page!
You have some very good points, and I totally agree. It's just hard to make something that you know a relatively small portion of people will see, when you want it to be a success. I do know however, that the second Outlaw would be much more action packed since the first laid the foundation of the story. That's not to say the second would be only action, but I wouldn't have to take up most of the time with dialogue explaining the story and driving the plot forward. I'll take all you and everyone else say into account, and truly appreciate the advice.
:(, I read all of it and man I understand what your saying, even though I don't make anything. But don't let it get you down man, you like you said should make the animation for you and no one else (well except the fans like myself). Do take your time man, but don't give up on it. Good luck in everything man. Ohh and looking forward to watching your submission on the metal gear collab :)
Well I read all of it, and somehow I don't understand some parts. What I do think you're saying is that life is interfering with your work and that you think that most people don't care about your work.
Some works are appreciated by some and others aren't. It depends on the audience that is watching said work. You get different responses from different audiences. So if you submit an animation with a topic that the audience likes, it will be given a good response. But if you submit an animation that only a few people from the audience like, it will not be given a good response that the other submission was given.
What I'm saying here is that different people like different things. Don't think that most don't care of what you make. If you make a good impression, many people will come to like your work. Outlaw is awesome, and if shown to the right people, it will get enough interest.
Well that's my 2 cents. And good luck with that MGS collab thing. Good luck with other issues in life that I don't know about too. Good luck in finding a place to live in as well.
I thought Outlaw was a stunning work of animation, though I did, admittedly, find much of the plot over-the-top. Still, it was more-deserving of a high score than a good portion of the animations rated higher than it. Apparently this sort of musing is not the least bit unique to you; an artist named "rtil", who created "Gum", "You Can't Kill Me", and several other good flashes posted a message criticizing Newgrounders for favoring cheap parodies over quality, original, series. Perhaps you two should get in touch - you seem to think along the same lines, as well as to share a love of high-detail FBF. For my part, I am a bit sick of seeing two-bit collabs, "crew" specials, and spam artists' work slip through the blam system, watching submissions by "celebrities" leap to the top over better-made pieces by people with lesser reputations. Anyway, I hope you don't get discouraged by your treatment; scores have become largely meaningless these days - if the thorough reviews you got were positive, then you can be fairly certain your work was appreciated by the individuals who bothered to give it a chance.
I read it all and theres one thing i can think of saying.... welcome to the internet...
people here mostly admire funny stuff so if u doing ur outlaw series for fame id say to not continue it, i recomend you to do that animation for yourself since when u watch it u will know u were able to create a master piece and not just easy to do fame eraning parodys... and ur MGS part looks great just by the look of that drawing =P
Sounds like you're beginning to stray from animating what you enjoy... dont let the public or the e-fame drive to what you do... if you have a passion and vision for something go for it.. people get too caught up in winning pixel awards or reaching a certain amounts of pageviews.
That should never measure your success / satisfaction level. YES its great when you have a movie that is loved by billions but in the end you are an artist and you should do things that make you happy.
I wouldnt ditch the series because of its poor performance if its a series you feel you have to tell. At the same time i wouldnt continue the series if you feel like you are beating a dead horse.
First off, I still can't thank you enough for helping me out with the code. You don't understand how frustrated I was getting.
Second, you are very correct. It's not really about the awards, or even the views per say. It's just hard not to compare some movies with mine, and feel disappointment. There are unique series on the site that have great story lines, and have a lot of fans and views. I was hoping mine could be held in as high esteem, but it just simply wasn't. Whether that means Outlaw is worse or better is debatable - but the fact remains that it wasn't recieved as well.
If I continue it though, it's a story that I have put a lot of time and effort into, and don't think it would be beating a dead horse. But at the same time, I question whether I should get a new horse all together - one that might be better. Who knows. Thanks for taking the time to comment, and Castle Crashing the Beard is awesome.
You might have a smaller audience, but it will be a more passionate audience. Take Kol-Belov, for example; his movies often aren't especially popular, but you hear his name and movies referenced around the site as if he's some sort of legend. That's the kind of fanbase you could have if you stuck to making what you WANT to make, as opposed to catering to what tons of people seem to want.
Not that you can't have it both ways... You can make goofy stuff in short spurts, while still working on your passion project, if that is in fact Outlaw. Life is always about balance, and making goofy stuff is fun and breaks the monotony of big projects. You can get hooked on trying to constantly cater to the masses, but that gets just as monotonous as a big project, and people will know it when you stop making stuff for fun and start churning it out to maintain visibility.
I think if you make what YOU want to see, no matter how small your audience wil be, it will be the best audience you can find. They will be more loyal than typical fanboys and you will relate to them like close friends, because you share a common interest in something YOU think is really cool.
You raise excellent points, and I really appreciate the time you've taken away from Castle Crashers to make a comment (I hope the beard is becoming epic). What I don't think I made apparent in my post was that even if I do decide to stop working on the Outlaw series, it wouldn't be because I want to cater to the newgrounds audience.
Even though I believe in the story of Outlaw, and know that it is very interesting to me, I can't help but take the criticisms to heart. If the general public doesn't like it, perhaps it really isn't as well thought out and developed as I thought. I have several other stories that I have created over the years, and perhaps those are better stories to tell. Even the best directors in cinema don't make a great movie every time.
Thats not to say that the attention generated from my movie is in any way negative. It's generally very positive. But an example comes to mind. I dont know if you've played it, but a great game for the Playstation 2 (and soon the Wii) was Okami. It got great scores from publications, won awards, and was just a great and unique experience. The only problem was that not that many people played it. It still sold relatively well, but just not enough to merit a sequel. So much time and effort was put into it, that if the second performed as did the first, it would be a relative failure. Other people have raised the argument that the success of the second could revive the first, and breath life into the series, and that's an idea that I have been playing with.
Regardless, the fans that I have for the first are great, and extremely supportive. I've even spoken privately with many people who want to be a part of the second. These people, along with the supportive comments of the community really are making me think that perhaps the second should be made. It's a tough decision, and one I will be making soon. Again, thanks for the comments, and good luck with Castle Crashers.
You are awesome man, you're a really cool artist, keep it up!! Just don't forget to enjoy what you do, even if your art is a compromissed one, or just for the fun of it.
first off, i read the whole thing. YAY. (see if you can read mine. i measured and its longer{not a euphemism})
but seriously, you should make the sequel for Outlaw, because it is probably one of the greatest animations i have ever watched. but when(if) you do decide to get back on the horse and choose to start making Outlaw Pt.2, don't do little pieces here and there and make it take years to complete. if you do it sporadically, you will lose interest, and it'll become boring. but if you dedicate a huge chunk of time to doing this taking a few breaks here and there, it'll get done much faster, and it'll be wholly enjoyable as well. make it fun, and when you enjoy it, others will as well.
and lets be honest. this is a sick ass series. (or will be when/if the second one is made) a lot of people are gonna want to see a sequel, including yours truly. and this is one of the best series ever, so giving up on this would be like Da Vinci giving up on the Mona Lisa half way through.(couldn't think of a better example). but yea. awesome series, i would be really bummed if there were no futherences in the series. and if you get bored, just take a load off and play some Wii. it helps relieve stress. no joke
The guys that sayed that too you were dushbags its nto boring it has an awesome animation effect and shape of the characters so keep up whit your series
Im expecting a great flash =)
Well everyone else covered most of the points I want to say so I'll just keep it short.
"Screw the majority of the NG viewers."
You don't need to make a movie that please everyone, just do what you like to do and I'm sure it's much more rewarding than to force yourself to make a movie that please the NG audience but you're not happy with.
I loved Outlaw pt. 1, and I would hate to be left hanging with a only partially finished plot. The storyline alone left me speechless, and I can tell that you put alot of effort into it. I watched it maybe 8 times over with friends and family, and none of them had a single negative comment on it. The animation was amazing, and even the devils voiceover was better than any I could do, which I know you got alot of bad reviews over that. Also those 10-13 pre-pubestic brats who log on for gore and action, I think would be really surprised if you made another, as I see it, this has potential to add both of those, as you displayed at the end of pt. 1. Plz man, dont leave me or Newgrounds hanging on such an awesome flash.
First off, I think you may have lost your sense of perspective here on one thing: how much 30k views really mean. Never forget that the majority of flash on NG barely reach 2k views. In fact, hard numbers shows that out of the aprox. 120,000 animations on NG, aprox. 60,000-70,000 of them haven't reached that number. Yet your animation is within the top 10,000 most seen movies, has 300 reviews (and I know plenty of animations, specially before the site redesign, that barely have 30) and still is within the top 200 movies. Any artist should feel proud of such an acomplishment on a absolute scale.
But, on the other hand, I do understand where you're coming from. Newgrounds has a massive audience, but it's not a particulary mature one. Just take a look at Adam Phillip's movies, although some of them have a couple of millions of views, that still pales when compared to the 40+ millions of views that SimGirls has. In fact, none of the top 10 most viewed movies can qualify as "quality animation". It's a sad part of NG (and of life, when stop to think about it, as can be seen of TV), really, that some of the best of it is (relativly) ignored.
Parodoxily, if I wanted to be (slightly) cruel, I could point out that my very best animation / poem / game, the one I'm extremely proud of, that took quite an effort to write the script for, then learn AS and finally code, has a grand total of 1k views and 20 reviews. That's it. Futhermore, I was pretty sure that it was going to be (largely) ignored too. But I still went for it and I'm determined to make more, in the same line. Because although I'm (greatly) saddend that so few have seen it (and whatever continuation it will have), as I said, I'm still immensly proud of what I accomplished.
And this is the sort of motivation you need to find, I'd guess, if you want to keep making movies that break the mold. Unless you thought that the Outlaw could have been a "mainstream" sucess. Maybe that's what, deep down, is bothering you?
Anyhow, all I've written is become a bit of a confused rant and I can't take the time to organize my thoughts better (dammed test tomorrow and I've taken too much time writing this), so in short: find out what truely motivates you and go with it.
If it's the audience, go "mainstream", i.e., think of what makes sucess and go with it.
If it's an "inner passion", go with that, i.e., screw the public and do something that will, in the future, make you proud, and don't confuse proud here with pleased (I'm not pleased with my movie, as I can see all the ways it could have been much better, but I'm still dammed proud of it).
If it's both, then listen to what the audience tells you after the movie is submmited and try to incorporate what they say next time. I.e., you'll have to change things to a greater or smaller extent to satisfy them more (which, admitly, can be very hard).
Btw, should you reply to this, could you possibly warn me on my userpage? I'd greatly appreciate it.
Hey Vert, thanks for putting all that time into a response. I can most definitely see where you're coming from. I tried to convey that I do indeed believe Outlaw was a success, and 30k views is really good. I'm sorry to hear that your animation/poem/game didn't get the attention you wanted.
Here's an analogy that I'll make, to try and convey what I feel about the situation. Think of a video game like Metal Gear Solid 4. For them to make their money back on the project (not even profit from it), they need to sell close to 4 million units. If they sell 3 million units, that's still incredible. Most games never sell that many. However, if they sell 3 million units, it's looked upon as a financial failure. That's where I feel Outlaw is at. I will almost definitely make a sequel though, and it will be for me, not the mainstream newgrounds audience. I've already storyboarded the beginning and it's pimppppp. Hahah, alright, well anyways, take it easy. And again, thanks for the comment.
Kangman
I really hope you do make a sequal for Outlaw because I really enjoyed and appreciated all the work you put into the first one. Even thought Outlaw 2 may not get all the appreciation it should I think you should make the movie for the pure joy of flash.
I really enjoy movies with a story and the outlaw was fascinating. If you get through all the 10-13 yearolds that, well only cares about hentai and random ass parody there are many people that come here to see flash for the pure joy of watching a great animation.
I hope you especially keep your talent of flash alive and pop out more movies, whether serious animations or comedies.
I hope you find your place in the animation world!
Flash is getting more and more popular and soon I think it has potential for professional high budget movies too!
BiffTheTimid
True there are a lot of people who dig on hentai and random parodies, and I've even poked fun at them. But I don't resent that, and it makes sense that those types of movies generate a huge fan base. They're short bites of comedy that can be viewed over and over without having to put much thought into the meaning of it. When something is smaller and not as long, it's just simple math that people will watch it several times because they don't have to sit through it. Thanks a lot for the encouragement, and by no means am I quitting animation, or newgrounds. I agree that flash is getting taken more seriously every year, and there's infinite potential waiting to be tapped.